For the movement to survive, OO needs to be seen as a populist movement, and not an extremist group. I’ve seen so many good people, especially union leaders and activists, rush into OO with enthusiasm and excitement and hope that things can change for the better http://loans-cash.net/faq.php
Frank Ogawa Plaza can become a permanent place for community activism. But instead of turning it into a camp or a riot, why not work with the people of Oakland to make it a place of activism? There’s some very powerful allies who want to be a part of OO, but are being alienated rather than included. (As for the name, how about a ballot initiative to change the name of it if it should be called OGP).
And things don’t happen overnight, they take time. It’s not going to be changed over night. The next election is in November of 2012, how about working towards then? How about getting the city to install permanent outdoor bathrooms at the plaza for the weekends and when the city building is closed? How about we as a group enforce the no camping ban? Show the people of Oakland that we represent the people of Oakland, and not just a few extremists looking for a fight?
There’s many actions that can and should be taken. Time to step up to the plate and start doing it right.
David, I think you may resonate with an observation I made when I first moved to the Bay Area almost 10 years ago from Chicago. I was brought up to believe that being a Liberal means that one is a “Free Thinker.” I thought it meant that, unlike conservatives, I have the freedom to look at all angles of an issue and decide what’s best for myself even if it doesn’t agree with what other Liberals believe. That’s a “Liberal” principle that I have held most dear.
I think what we have here in the Bay Area is a concentration of the Ultra Left or as some would call it “The Ultra Liberals.” They are the polar opposite of the Ultra Right or “The Ultra Conservatives.” However, both groups share one thing in common. There is a rigid dogma that one must adhere to if one is to be considered among the Ultra Left or the Ultra Right. Each have their own dogma that is diametrically opposed but both dogmas share rigidity. There isn’t room for “free thought” and dissent among the Ultra Left or Ultra Right. There is only dogma.
I have always thought of myself as a “Flaming Liberal.” I espouse much of what the Left believes and I have some differences in opinion. And my differences in opinion are welcomed in other areas of the country where there is a better mixture of Liberalism than in some political circles in the Bay Area.
I quickly learned that in order to be considered “Liberal” by some here in the Bay Area, I had to adopt a certain dogma (a rigid set of beliefs) in order to establish my “Liberal” “credentials.” That wasn’t going to happen since I’ve never been one who could ascribe to any rigid system of belief. I question everything. It’s my nature to do so. That’s why I’ve almost always felt most at home with Liberal Movements. Most Liberal Movements welcome dissent.
There seems to be a core within Occupy Oakland at the moment that is Ultra Left and they consider themselves “True Liberals.” I learned that if I disagree with any part of the dogma of Bay Area Ultra Left people, I was suddenly ostracised. I think you may be experiencing that at the GAs from what you write.
I used to see political thought on a line where people fell on a spectrum where opposite ends are right and left. After living in the Bay Area just after living in very Ultra Conservative area of the country, I have begun to think of political thought like a circle. Ultra Conservatives and Ultra Liberals eventually meet at some point on the circle where there is rigidity in political belief. They share rigidity in common even though they are diametrically opposed on just about everything else.
The current hostility in political discourse in this country is evidence that rigid diametricallly opposed dogmas are preventing civil political discussion to happen. When civil political discussion can’t happen there can’t be compromise. When compromise can’t happen the political process breaks down and nothing (or very little) gets done for the benefit of the country. That’s what I see happening now.
I hope that some on the Ultra Left and Ultra Right will come to learn that they share at least a few things in common so that there can be some work that can be done together. That’s what I see happening in other Occupy groups. That’s where the hope is for me. In other parts of the country we have Liberals and Conservatives and Capitalists and Socialists working together as part of the 99%.
Here in Oakland, it’s fast becoming apparent that Occupy Oakland is considering itself on the Left in political thought. And it seems that people on the Ultra Left feel a certain sense of ownership over Occupy Oakland. With that comes a whole set of rigid dogma that some believe is necessary for Occupy Oakland. If this is holding out to be true for the long term, it will alienate most of the 99% in Oakland. Most Oaklanders are somewhere in between Left and Right. A balance within Occupy Oakland where there is genuine civil political discussion and compromise would attract more people to Occupy Oakland.
David, I would suspect that you are not a Conservative just like I’m not a Conservative. I am a Liberal. I’m not an Ultra Leftist Liberal. I’m a Left Leaning Liberal who likes to think for himself. Sometimes I don’t fit in political groups here that consider themselves “Liberal” because I cannot adopt the entire set of dogma presented. It’s sad, but that’s what I’ve found.
I’m going to back you up on the substance of your post Aaron. I have spoken at the GA, and I have been booed for suggesting that Capitalism could be saved. I am a pretty extreme person. But being at Occupy Oakland sometimes makes me feel like a conservative, in comparison. That’s a REALLY bad thing as far as our ability to grow. The only reason I still go to the GA at Occupy Oakland is that I still believe in Occupy Wall Street and I don’t want it to be destroyed by this group of dangerous and immature armchair revolutionaries. In the meantime, I am spending time talking to people at other Occupy groups and encouraging them to draft a unifying statement of non-violence that ALL Occupy groups can endorse. If Oakland can’t pass it, then at least we’ve admitted that we are not really an Occupy Wall St. group, but just mostly the same group that rioted in downtown Oakland for Oscar Grant and decided to co-opt Occupy Wall St. for its own purposes.
Joe, everything you’re talking about is what I hoped and thought would happen… but what I see, at the GA, is the same 60 – 80 of the anarchist crowd who segregate themselves on their side of the theater, and the other people are dwindling and losing belief. The anarchist group or whatever you want to call them, they seem more delighted by gaining greater control of Occupy Oakland than they are concerned with the implosion of our support. Of course, these are many of the same people who took the gift that was given to them by the people of Oakland with the peaceful Port shut-down and used the opportunity to piss all over that accomplishment by taking over the Traveller’s Aid building and shooting bottle rockets at the police. The OP is absolutely correct that there is an immature group that is bent on creating conflict with police and has no interest in broader change within the U.S. Constitution. They have no belief in America, and in truth they despise their fellow Americans in the 99%. There are so many signs of it. Instead of growing bigger, people go to a GA and hear somebody say “Gandhi was a mysoginist prick” and they never come back.
araron – there are tons of us out here just like you, teetering between frustration and exhilaration with the movement. i’m glad you’re hanging in.
I’m not going anywhere. I’ll be at Wednesdays actions/ga at Fruitvale. Can’t say I strongly agree with the rally call for tonight that just seems more like it’s all about provoking conflict, and not change.
My local NCPC doesn’t really view OO very favorably. Part of this disconnect with how OO thinks everyone loves them (except for the 1%), although to others outside of OO (like my NCPC), the group appears as a few extremists/marxists/anarchists who just want to bankrupt and destroy Oakland. Hopefully time shows that the goal is about economic change, and not the fight to punish Oakland for not allowing camping.
Sorry I got frustrated. But you did start out your reply that was easily interpreted as “I disagree with you, and the reason you are wrong is you are so stupid that you must get all your news from the least credible source on the planet”.
Hi Aaron, I agree with much of what you said. Please don’t give up on it, though. We need balance here, and that means more people like you.
Please stick around. I wrote a post somewhere about the need for dissent and a wish that more dissenters would get involved.
I’m involved with my local neighborhood association. The neighborhood associations are wonderful places to get involved.
I like that I get to meet my neighbors, many of whom are involved in Occupy Oakland.
Not trying to attack anyone or get you upset. I’m just engaging you in a conversation. It’s not that I 100% disagree with what you wrote. I hope you had a sense that I think you have some excellent ideas, actually.
Just because I feel different about whether or not this is a populist movement doesn’t mean that I can’t see your point of view. You have a valid opinion. Mine is just different. I guess my experience of being involved with OO is different from yours. That’s encouraged, I think.
I’m already feeling a shift, and hoping that if I stick around long enough, that common sense will prevail. I’m an optimist…
As for getting involved, one good way is to join your local NCPC. Look it up, there’s probably a monthly meeting, go to it, and you’ll meet others involved in your local community on the local level.
hmm, i think simcha was really trying to candidly respond to you, not provoke a reaction. but i might have missed something.
i feel you. i hope you stay because we need different voices being heard. i also do not appreciate people being booed, yelled at, or otherwise disrespected by GA attendants and unfortunately by a couple of the facilitators, sometimes.
i am also on the verge of saying “fuck this shit” and just getting involved with activists who are already established in oakland.
Ug, I feel like I just fell into a trap there. The sheep who follow OO are so good at provoking a response. And I fell for the bait and responded out of emotion, just like you wanted.
I’ll just say that I’ve been to a number of GAs. I have not spoken because I am very intimidated by the crowd. I’ve seen so many people get yelled at, others with any opinion that does not conform, be pretty much shunned and shoed away.
My opinions do not come from TV, they do not come from Fox news. They come from living in Oakland, and being very active in my local community, NCPC, union groups and other activists groups I have long been a part of. And yes, a majority of people I speak to do think that OO is an extremist group, and they also do not feel that OO’s views reflect the views of the Occupy groups elsewhere.
So far, all I’ve seen from trying to get involved is a bunch of blind sheep mindlessly wandering around, like children on a playground who get abused at home, they go to school and become the bullies.
If this is to be a populist movement, which it is not even close to being in Oakland, then people who are a part of the movement need to start listening and talking to the people of Oakland, outside their little bubble of sheep, and any time (which will be often) that the opinion comes up that OO is a fringe extremist group, instead of screaming “you’re wrong, you’re evil, you’re a tool of the 1%”, how about instead asking “why do you feel this”?
Because at this point, every action OO makes, especially actions with the sole intent of provoking authority and starting a fight, only alienates the movement, and makes the 1% smile, because they love what OO has done so far!
“OO needs to be seen as a populist movement, and not an extremist group.”
I see it as a populist movement and so do most people except MSM and especially Fox News and the 1%. I have a job. I live in Oakland in an apartment I rent and keep clean. I bathe every day. I participate in the Movement when I can because I do have other responsibilities. The participants I’ve seen come from many different walks of life and very few of them seem to be extremists. Extremists are, by definition, extreme and tend to be small in number. The crowds I’ve seen when I’ve been to actions with Occupy Oakland are rather large, friendly, and don’t seem to be extreme.
“But then they see a group that is full of rage.”
That’s what it may seem like on TV. That’s not what it’s like when I’ve gone to events. I see people who are angry about the bad state of things for the 99%. I see that anger focused in gathering a diverse group of people who are non-violent. The mood has felt empowering and uplifting to me.
“Where the perceived goal is not to change wall street or current economic structures, but rather to provoke conflict with local authority and to bankrupt our already struggling city (punish for not submitting to every demand).”
Perceived by whom? Perhaps this is perceived by some press outlets and the 1%? It’s not at all how I’ve seen it. When protests have turned violent it’s because the local authorities have provoked the crowd (and the crowd has rarely answered with any violence). There are the “fringe” people who have engaged in some destructive and provocative acts. And the rest of us now look for them and surround them before there is trouble. On 11/19 I saw a guy with one of those masks taunting police. And I saw several people surrounding him and asking him to refrain from taunting the police. The majority seem to want peaceful protests. I know the TV has made it seem like Occupy Oakland is prone to violence. The reality when I’ve been present has been quite different. And it’s the City Leaders who have decided to deal harshly with a peaceful group of people with overwhelming militaristic police presence in the past that has cost Oakland dearly in more than money. There was no need for the City to spend and waste its resources so needlessly. I’m angry at the City for having wasted our resources on violent repression and the majority of the people at work where I work and the people I know (diverse people) are angry at the City for the waste and not at Occupy Oakland.
“Camping is a Tactic, it is not a goal.”
Very true. See the announcement about the vigil that will start tomorrow at noon. The tactics are changing.
“But unfortunately, for OO it has become a goal.”
This has been true for some but this is becoming false. And it’s only always been one goal held by some. Please see the announcement about the vigil for direct evidence.
“Frank Ogawa Plaza can become a permanent place for community activism.”
It already is. I think you may be missing something here. Just go there and see for yourself.
“…why not work with the people of Oakland to make it a place of activism?”
I am a “person of Oakland.” I’ve been to Oscar Grant Plaza for activist events as part of Occupy Oakland and for other activist events in the past. I feel like this is my movement too. I live here. It’s home. And I feel like this movement has grown because of fellow Oakland residents who are there every day even when I can’t be there.
“There’s some very powerful allies who want to be a part of OO, but are being alienated rather than included.”
OK, name them and invite them to events and General Assemblies. All of them are free to come to OO events and General Assemblies to include themselves. There are no leaders as of yet. Anyone who doesn’t participate chooses to be non-participant at the moment. No one has been excluded. If some feel alientated, that seems to be a choice, from what I’ve seen. I’ve seen some individuals who were provoking discouraged from doing so, but not completely excluded.
“As for the name, how about a ballot initiative to change the name of it if it should be called OGP”
Sure, why not? But then again, I’m not sure that everyone understands why it’s called “Frank Ogawa Plaza” and who Frank Ogawa was. He was a civil rights leader. He was the first Japanese American to serve on the Oakland City Council and on any City Council in a major city in the continental U.S. He was detained with his family during WWII with the rest of the Japanese American community. The Plaza was named for him to honor his work as a civil rights leader and the naming of the Plaza in honor of a Japanese American was a way for Oakland to try to begin to make peace with the oppression and detention of Japanese Americans during WWII. If this becomes a ballot initiative, it would be important to educate the public about how the Plaza got it’s name in the first place and about who Frank Ogawa was. The name change at the moment is symbolic and is valid. Permanently changing the name should be considered carefully and in full consideration of why the Plaza currently has a different official name.
“And things don’t happen overnight, they take time. It’s not going to be changed over night.”
Absolutely true. And it’s absolutely true of political movements like Occupy Oakland. It takes time for a grass roots movement to coalesce and evolve. The best thing anyone can do is to get involved to help guide the evolution.
“The next election is in November of 2012, how about working towards then?”
Excellent suggestion. Get involved at the GAs and maybe help form a committee to plan a strategy.
“How about getting the city to install permanent outdoor bathrooms at the plaza for the weekends and when the city building is closed?”
Great idea. Get involved at the GAs and maybe help petition the city to do this.
“How about we as a group enforce the no camping ban?”
Why is this necessary? The tactics are changing. Please see the announcement about the vigil. Come to a GA and suggest this and present why it would be important for the group to enforce the no camping ban. Who knows? Maybe others would see this as a valuable thing to do.
“Show the people of Oakland that we represent the people of Oakland, and not just a few extremists looking for a fight?”
From participation in Occupy Oakland events, especially the march on 11/19, I would say that the people of Oakland see that we represent the people of Oakland. People in the cars who were inconvenienced by the blocking of traffic were all happy to cheer us on. And most of us are Oakland residents. So we do represent the people of Oakland ipso facto.
You bring up some very good points, The movement does turn off many people. I think what is happening is, as the movement grows and I think it will, its image and the way it is perceived changes, We are also overcoming the Image the mainstream media has pinned on us. Many extremists will drop out as they see the vast majority of us are non-violent and believe there is still hope and that maybe we can change and reform the nation. The best thing that is happening right now is people are talking and many who have never been politically involved are now just that. Good things are bound to come from this. We’ve just started, This movement is far from perfect but I haven’t giving up on it yet.