i believe OO campers who say it had nothing to do with OO. i am sorry for the man who died and his family, and for the cause, the camp, the canceled celebration tonight, and the city of Oakland and poor Tully’s Coffee.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/breaking-news/shooting-injures-one-near-occupy-oakland-encampmen/nFbKP/
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First to respond to revolutionary — I agree that the police are a tool of the 1%. And so is the military. I’m no more ready to start physically attacking the police than I am to attack the military. In Egypt, the revolution was a success in fact because the people were able to eventually gain the support of the police and military. From my understanding and perspective, OWS is all about targeting the 1% and holding them accountable. Targeting the police is just falling for a distraction. Stay focused on wall street and big banks; if we solve those problems then the police will become our defenders again instead of a tool of the 1%.
Tom Joad — I agree it was wrong of Quan to use the murder as a political tool. But we knew full well that any and all violence in or around #OO camps or actions would be associated with us, and still chose not to issue any official policy of non-violence. So we have deliberately allowed ourselves to be put out in a bad position in the media, which is what I and others have tried to tell you these past few weeks. Insulting me personally isn’t going to help.
There is no negotiation because we’ve adopted a completely paranoid and confrontational attitude towards the city government. At one point we had a lot of support there, but now it has faded away. But I agree with you, it would be good for our occupiers to either set up a less dangerous camp elsewhere or at least to surrender peacefully. The militant/violent attitude is really not part of what OWS is about imho. A particular group of anarchists has latched onto #OO and used it to push their own agenda.
But, that was just a few people they randomly asked. It looks from what I’ve heard more recently that the victim was indeed a supporter of Occupy Oakland, which doesn’t make the event any more or less tragic and doesn’t mean the violence was associated with anything political, but it does give ammunition to the forces of the 1%.
For those who do not believe the police are direct tools of the 1% I would suggest you read this: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-i-stopped-worrying-and-learned-to-love-the-ows-protests-20111110
The police are directly responsible for many of the homicides in our city. This most recent numbered 101 is only because the systemitized police brutality is not part of the official homicide count.
I understand. I am speaking directly to the core occupiers, encouraging them to stay nonviolent even if the police should raid the camp. But I hope there is another peaceful solution than a raid. I just don’t know what it is. I wish the campers and the city could negotiate an agreement as in SF. I wish I wish I wish.
That’s not what I meant. I meant what the OO people said in news videos and articles, that the victim and the perpetrators were unknown to them. Please don’t take my words out of context. Thank you.
But you are dishonest, David, and when I see bullshit out of somebody I’m going to call them on it. If you don’t like it, don’t do it anymore. To further illustrate the point, I wasn’t trying to drive home any political point at all, simply underscoring how insensitive it was of Quan to make a political point out of it. I’m not even going to address the ridiculousness of the rest of your post… To paraphrase a wiser man than either of us, there’s no point casting your pearls before swine.
Yesterday I had nothing of political nature to say about this. But you made political comments up above and so I responded to them, and I think I was able to do so in a measured way.
No, we cannot stop all the murders in Oakland just by adopting a stance of non-violence. But the fact that we have frankly refused to distance ourselves from perpetrators of vandalism and violence is what makes it so easy for Quan and other politicians to connect us to the violence. So what I said was our position would be stronger if we were an explicitly peaceable assembly.
You’re right; I have never been to Oscar Grant Plaza. But I have been to Frank Ogawa Plaza many times, before and since Occupy Oakland took over. The very first thing #OO did was to rename the park after a victim of police violence, in itself this was a provocation to the police and an injustice to the memory of Frank Ogawa. And in fact no police are welcome in the park. I have been to other Occupy sites in SF and in Santa Fe NM and they frequently have police who patrol the area. We have not allowed that in Oakland, and our own security attempts are inadequate even though the people doing security are some of our bravest and most responsible activists. Unlike OWS and all other Occupy camps, we allow drug use and a party atmosphere at our Occupy camp (last night’s shooting took place in the midst of just such a party). Please don’t try to make it all about my “dishonesty”. Occupy Oakland has become a negative for our city, and it’s partly because of our own stance towards government and police which is far more militant than other Occupy groups. We are supposed to be against the 1%, not against the police. Too many Oakland activists just saw this whole thing as “Oscar Grant Pt 2.”
Once again a dishonest reply out of DH. He says nobody should be using this for political purposes, but then goes on to refer to his version of what has become a wedge issue as of late. Even if we did adopt the platform you’re talking about, it still wouldn’t change the fact that Oakland has averaged a murder every three days in 2011 and all the resolutions in the world wouldn’t change that. What might, however, change that is the one stated goal I’ve heard trumpeted over and over: an end to economic injustice.
Furthermore, I’m starting to think you’ve never set foot in OGP. There is internal security there, despite your assertions to the contrary. However, the shooting happened so quickly that I doubt anything could be done. As a final point, the police can and will step into OGP whenever they want and already have. It was the way they went about it, with the “culture… of macho violence” you so despise. Please, David, now more than ever, be honest. Stop your agenda pushing and realize that this is a tragedy and that you should take your own advice.
The situation should not be exploited for anybody’s political advantage. This plague of violence was not brought to Oakland by the Occupy movement; it has festered here for decades, and it has been aided by a culture that glorifies macho violence. However, Occupy Oakland could have condemned all violence in and around our camps and actions weeks ago, and it would have made our message now stronger. And Occcupy Oakland did send out a call for essentially a block party last night to celebrate one month. When you announce a big party in Oakland and you don’t provide or allow for security, this kind of thing often happens. Oakland is the only city in the whole Occupy movement where regular police patrols are not allowed to even step into the camp. We have created an unsafe situation in downtown Oakland, for citizens and ourselves. This man who tragically died was not running to us for help; he was one of us.
The group at UC had already made a pact of non-violence prior to engaging in direct action. That is not the situation in Oakland. A good amount of occupiers believe they should “fight back”. So, those of us who would show up in solidarity and do a huge sit/lie-down, are not going to do so.
I am seriously concerned about this “This incident had nothing to do with OO” line. This had EVERYTHING to do with OO and the issues we are fighting for. This type of street violence is how unjust economic policies manifest in a city like Oakland. This is not a separate issue, this IS THE issue. http://positivepeacewarriornetwork.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/the-birth-of-occupy-oakland-the-death-of-another-young-man/
OO responded well to the tragedy, providing medics, cordoning off the scene so the paramedics could do their work, and holding a candlelight vigil. Kudos to you.
And if this is true, my condolences to the camper-relative of the shooting victim: “Camper Madea Williams said the shooting victim was her cousin, whom she identified only as Alex, and that he had shared a tent with her in the camp.”
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/10/BAAI1LTA0L.DTL#ixzz1dQAZkzO3
I am not surprised at city politicians’ calls to end the camp. I wish OO and the city had been able to communicate early on and work out an arrangement as SF has (so far), with multiple code checks daily in exchange for police and city cooperation.
But in Oakland the police riot of Oct. 25 made that impossible. I don’t know what the solution is. I only hope there’s no repeat this time.
Please stay peaceful and don’t fight back. Sit in if you must, but please don’t fight back. It’s the hardest thing to fight your self-defense impulses and anger, and takes the most courage, but it’s also the most effective way. As at Cal the other night, the public can see with their own eyes that you did nothing to provoke any unnecessary police tactics, and they will see the brutality in those tactics. That’s why it’s so powerful.
Yeah, this certainly is tragic… I just saw a report on KRON that said that the shooting was the end result of a fistfight that happened nearby. The poor guy was probably running toward OO because he thought the people there would help him, which we would have. Unfortunately, the shooter got to him first. My sincerest condolences to his family and loved ones.
Also, and I hope nobody thinks this is out of order, but right on cue Quan was on TV this morning saying this shooting underscores why the encampment should go. Fuck politicians.
I also feel horrible about what happened, and I wish to offer my respect and condolences to the family and friends.
I’m very sorry to hear that a man lost his life in such a terrible way. May his spirit find peace and rest, and may his family and loved ones be consoled. My condolences to all.
Sincere condolences to the family and loved ones of tonight’s shooting victim. Also to those campers who worked to save his life.